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MN Council for Biblical Leadership
Pastor’s Summit
October 13, 2005
Present: Irv W, Joe S, John H, Steve G, Jon P, Sam C, Garth W, Jack D, Alex K, Scott C, Nathan T, Andrew S, Quirin M, John D, Leo R, Chris M, Steve L, Mike R
Pastor Irv welcomed and introduced Joe S. of Fidellis Foundation.
He also introduced John Helmberger, CEO of MN Family Council. John gave an announcement regarding a Pastor’s Summit on November 10 at Grace Church, Eden Prairie in support of traditional marriage in MN. This will help equip pastors to encourage their congregations to get involved in the support of marriage, to come together with other pastors to have a common cause. It will also show the stand that the church is taking for the truth of the Bible.
Introductions around the table were given.
Topic for discussion: Complementarianism and its impact on Para church organizations, Christian Colleges and Seminaries.
Should we support through finances, promotion and manpower Para church organizations that do not take the complementary stand?
- No we should not support Para church orgs. that do not support our view. But more importantly we must find out why people that haven’t taken a stand aren’t taking one and we should be willing to share the truth of the scripture with them.
- What about InterVarsity Press? Or other org. that we use regularly?
- The truth of the scripture is clear, but the application of that is not as clear.
- There are many people that are doing a great harvest of righteousness but are not complementarian. Coming alongside them to share your heart for the truth and continuing relationships to influence could be key rather than cutting off funding and support.
- Determine what the Bible’s standards for heresy are and understand what egalitarianism is—is it heresy? It is important to think through how crucial this topic of Complementarianism is and what stance we should take on handling on the issue.
- It is ok to steward the funds that are in your hands and if you have a clear conscience about stopping funding due to beliefs, but what can we do to foster a right view in the issue? Can we do that by cutting ourselves off from others?
- Bethel University: Their stance as expressed publicly is that they are not ordaining; they are training people. As long as you fit in “the box” of their views they will train you. There is a range of views on just about every subject among the views of the faculty. There is hope and the key is hiring good professors.
- There is a difference between what is stated and what is permitted.
Finances:
- There is a middle ground between financially supporting an org. and still maintaining a relationship.
- Schools may be hesitant to declare a stance at the risk of losing funding and students.
- Truth unites thought—scholarship is so vastly superior on our sides that it should be one of the primary points on our side. Because of this we should be able to make a stance because of our solid truth.
- By withholding funds we could marginalize ourselves and lose by default. We must argue for truth.
- There may be room for which response you choose to offer in your own good conscience.
- At some point we have to be willing to be marginalized rather than conform your views.
- There is a place for “Elijahs” and “Daniels.”
Would you support a young person that wanted to attend a fully vocal Egalitarian school?
- Advise the person to know what they are supporting and if they are comfortable with.
- With the money that we have, is it better to just give it to the school that you fully support rather than keep a “foot in the door” in order to maintain that relationship?
- You must allocate your money with a good conscience. If, by your support, you have an avenue to be heard use it…if it is not a place that you will be able to persuade, maybe it is better spent in complete support of the school/org that holds your same beliefs.
- Somewhere along the line there is a need to collate resources and get the message out there.
At some point if we are withholding funds, and withholding students, we must start something with the same beliefs.
When we have someone here like Wayne Grudem, wouldn’t it have been a great opportunity to have him or her engage in a discussion with someone for example from Bethel?
- How many people outside of the circle, have even heard the word Complementarianism and know what it really means? We need to engage the culture with this message.
How do you inculcate students with this position?
- It is important to live this view, get involved in your community and share your life with them.
- Preach the Bible and sound hermeneutics.
- Does the superiority of the Biblical scholarship carry an underlining view of the Bible. Is it held with authority?
- Understanding and reengaging in the supremacy of Christ and scripture is key to fully embracing this idea.
- The authority source needs to be established first and foremost.
- Our attitude is important when “teaching” on this topic so that people are open to listening to us.
- You can’t win the fight if you don’t have a dog in the fight. If we remove ourselves we will lose our influence.
- They will not receive our message until they receive us. It’s about the messenger as well as the message.
- Getting people to say they are Complementarianist is not even half the battle. The rest is getting them to truly understand and embrace what it really means. The teaching and the exhorting must never stop.
- Is this a topic you would feel comfortable preaching from the pulpit? Yes from Steve G. Honoring Jesus is the best option even if it offends.
- The influences of the church of far greater than the pulpit though. Life and culture shape people at an accelerated rate almost contrary to teaching. That is what lives on in life unfortunately, is what life and culture teach.
- Give away books to get the word out.
- Lots of folks don’t believe the Bible and if they do the do not understand.
- It’s a watershed issue. How do we shift the value to help people understand the importance of this issue?
- People have been culturing shaped and condition to write this topic off.
Pastor Steve G. encouraged the pastor’s to attend to Pastor’s Summit that John Helmberger highlighted earlier. Attend this because this issue is so important.
What are you doing with the information gained from these summits? Is there any change coming?
- Is there a way to have this in a different venue and invite people there to attend for example Bethel, NWC, Luther, etc. That way they could walk to it, get a free lunch and be a part of a discussion. This would be a possibility but it would have to be a commitment of those that are attending.
- In your mind what does that look like personally? In your own family and from there into ministry areas and then into the church. It is weaved through ministry.
- Seeking debate opportunities in “hostile” situations bringing awareness to the students and the being available to offer students answers and books.
Personal application: Irv has led the church in The Battle for Purity. Steve G. still has temptation but he has come to realize that some of the tenants of biblically based theology are huge influences of my mind when I stop to consider that this woman is created in the image of God and that marriage is the statement upon earth of God’s intimate relationship and soul and spirit of God. It is not good to mess with another man’s wife. The bride of Jesus does not belong to me just because I have a moment of attraction. The areas of purity and Complementarianism have weaved together very smoothly.
Quiring M. closed in prayer.
2 comments:
Not sure I am understanding your question/concern. Bethel's stance as is stated in the notes from the meeting is that they are in the business of training people, not ordaining people. I have heard numerous people on Bethel Seminary's staff state this exact thing. In fact, a month ago I met with all the incoming new students, and each group was told this very thing. I don't necessary disagree with this thinking, as I do believe women have leadership roles. Do they have the same roles as men? Not from what I can see reading Scripture, but different does not mean they are not equal. If God has ordained it to be so, filling the role that God has created is the greatest thing a person can do, it's not settling for less.
To steal from Harvest Bible Chapel, I affirm the God-ordained and significant role that women should play in establishing and leading the local church. Every leadership opportunity is open to women except those that are excluded by Scripture. The Scriptures clearly state that men are to serve in the office of Elder and that women are not to serve in church positions in which they exercise authority over men or in which they teach doctrine to men—1 Timothy 2:12; 1 Timothy 3:1-2; Titus 1:6-9. We do not see this as an issue of equality, for men and women are equal under God. The Bible is clear that men and women do not have the same roles. Qualified women should serve in any leadership position that is not forbidden in the Scriptures.
I discuss the application of Complimentarianism in college in a recent article I wrote at
http://blinkministries.org/?page_id=505
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